Curse

Tempast · Jan 04, 2009, 10:08 PM // 22:08

/signed like the idea alot,

the deep and urgoz, take like no coordination, Mesmer hex > CoP > PEWPEW > DONe

Zodiac Meteor · Jan 04, 2009, 10:22 PM // 22:22

I had a similar idea.
/signed
I would not have the 4 campaigns req. though.
The weapons/armor should req. Onyx and diamonds. Give us a reason to keep them.
At the end there should also be Zanshin PvE skills trainer. Also add points to Zanshin title track after each level.
Add monster skills to the NPC's.

Fril Estelin · Jan 04, 2009, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by unkleanone

Those builds will be set in stone thus eventually we will find a way to easily or atleast more easily destroy the entire dungeon in the shortest amount of time possible. It's simply the way skill based games work.

1) if what you say is true (if level5 doesn't change when meta changes), it doesn't remove the challenge and thus make it interesting; furthermore darkNecrid included an element of randomness in the dungeon design via maps changing, thus making it much less farmable (or at least not worth the efforts);

2) if what you say is not true, then it may be an argument towards the statement of PvPers that PvP > PvE (not taking into account that human > AI of course!)

Now, this is a nice way to move from PvE to PvP; but (if I may) not progressive enough: it shouldn't be a dungeon, but a "region" made of various maps where you can progress at your own pace (i.e. not spend 2h in a row but rather chunks of time, it's even a bit more casual player-friendly), but not changing the fact that failing will kick you out of the zone/region. I'd even add a few more levels with similar levels of difficulty to make the change even more progressive (when you teach, you always repeat yourself a lot), possibly with non-linear organisation (as in EotN's 3-way storyline). Add some training grounds in between levels, in particular at the beginning (for example, the Wintersday quest Strength of Snow was a nice dodging quest

I can imagine one for spiking, one for splitting, etc. ... all of this can already be done of course, the point being of helping players go through the change). Of course these proposals make it much, much less "elite" ("Hey we're not noobs, we don't need your progressive-casual-player BS!"), but more "PvE2PvP".

And to be precise, here PvP=GvG. HBers will complain and people will invoke the fact that the "G" in GW is here for that. But there's no discussion here, we're in Sardelac

fliakyte · Jan 04, 2009, 10:28 PM // 22:28

/signed for GW2
In GW1 this would be wayy to enormous of an undertaking to implement, and it seems like this would be better for a GW2 scenario, anyway.
Excellent research and ideas, I really hope ANet gets something like this down in GW2

.

Konig Des Todes · Jan 04, 2009, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Objectives in said suggestion:

I like everything here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

The Lore:

Personally, I think that the Order of Whispers would be better suited for the background. The Zaishen are situated on the Battle Isle and only control that one portal - while also acting similar to the Sunspears in that they fight off evil forces *why don't we see any of the Zaishen in the FoW I do not know*.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

The basics...:

Disagree with how to get there, although I like the requirement. I think a quest would be more fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

The Rules of the Elite Mission:

I question the no ale and the no heroes part. I understand limiting the heroes, but removing them all together would prevent parties who are unable to fill up the team with human players to give a real go. I say, make the mission hard enough to require 12 spots and limit everyone to one hero each - i.e., minimum of 6 people needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

The Elite Mission's layout:

Only issue here is the random level generator idea. While a good concept, for those like myself who may want to explore a certain area, it might end up being 20 times going into the dungeon in order to get the level I want. Also, I think the finale level should not be randomly chosen, being a boss level with no continuing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Level 5 = Current meta builds. (Also contains a final fight that is 1 random Guild Wars boss with better grouped "meta" enemies to support them.)

New bosses, do not re-use Khilbron, Shiro, etc. etc. If a new elite mission comes out, I want it to either focus on Menzies, Dhuum, or Lazarus. Or the "mysterious stranger" from the M.O.X. quests.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

The Elite Mission's Foes:

This is just putting PvP into PvE and hoping the AI can handle such builds. I highly doubt they can. I'm all for balanced builds and tricks and traps throughout elites that both harm and help your team, but don't rip things directly from PvP and only from PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

The Rewards:

I have one issue:

Quote:

*Additional rare new skins may drop (similar rarity as the MPB, this is to give new rare stuff to the economy)

This is an issue for two reasons. One, Linsey has stated that new weapon skins won't be easy (or they weren't at the time). Two, MPB rarity=weapons worth 3000 ectos (or 15,000,000g), pass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Upon completion or failure of this mission, you are sent back to where you used your scroll, and must use another to get to the outpost.

Again, just for clearification, I disagree with the requirement to use a scroll ever time. If it were to be like Urgoz/Deep then sure, as you would be sent back to the mission outpost not the town prior - and there are more ways in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

So in summary, an elite area that goes through the "history of PvP" and uses groups of enemies that use builds that actually work together, act smartly, and require teamwork to get past.

What do you think?

I disagree with the "history of PvP" for two reasons: Limitations of AI to run builds and Limiting tricks and traps only to those used in PvP (add some flame traps, ice darts, catapults, I may consider that part gone then). Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against PvP, but I think you will be making it too dissimilar to PvE to call it PvE.

The builds are the biggest issue I see, but balanced builds are a must.

/signed after some tweaks and after the current elite areas get buffed (i.e., suggestions like those made here.

Edit:
At all those who say that it cannot be done for GW1, it can be. Linsey has said that some people working on GW2 work overtime to work on GW1, and I think the Live Team would be capable of pulling off a brand new area. 9 Levels made - levels 1 through 4 having a 1 in 8 chance of showing, then 1 in 7 on and on, making level 5 a set level.

The idea might take away a big monthly update or two, possibly *but unlikely, imo* three, but it can be done before the end of the summer, probably before the beginning of the summer.

smilingscar · Jan 04, 2009, 11:43 PM // 23:43

I liked the idea at first. But then thought that dungeons are a tad annoying, and wished it could be explorable (as someone mentioned) with connecting outposts that can only be reached via zoning or logging back in (i.e. no map travel). I still liked the concept, however. And then I realized none this would never get implemented until GW2, then I realized I was just imagining how I wanted ALL pve to be in GW2 (and 1), and then I felt sad because it will never happen

.

Amantis · Jan 04, 2009, 11:48 PM // 23:48

To all of you who say the AI cant do it, well frankly, you're wrong. Take a look at Mhenlo in the Norn Fighting Tourney. They can program the AI to do anything as long as its specific. The reason heroes cant do this stuff is because they have to be able to run any build not just one complicated one. Also they can make monster skills to be pre-nerf meta skills. That all being said, while this is extremely possible, its very improbable. A-net just doesn't have the resources. If you did ever see this it wouldn't be for at least a couple months after GW2 comes out in a sorrows furnace like update. I don't really like the Tokens thing.

DarkNecrid · Jan 05, 2009, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Quote:

This is just putting PvP into PvE and hoping the AI can handle such builds. I highly doubt they can. I'm all for balanced builds and tricks and traps throughout elites that both harm and help your team, but don't rip things directly from PvP and only from PvP.

Since everyone says this, I guess I'll explain.

They are PvP builds, but they are PvP balanced builds. I chose them for a reason, mostly because they are balanced builds, balanced builds are team builds that have an answer to anything they can face and aren't shutdown so easily (ie: not a gimmick like ___way or ____sike). Any attempt to give monsters actual builds that work together and have lots of teamwork and are good without broken monster skills would wind up looking very much like a PvP build for this reason.

Monsters not having good builds has been one of the problems with GW PvE that Anet chose to counteract by giving monsters insane numbers instead of giving them good bars, and these bars are tried and true, so far as that Anet gave EotN monsters gimped versions of PvP bars with big numbers/monsters skills. Remove the big numbers and the monster skills from the equation and add on not gimped and you're pretty much right where you are now. Given the nature of the elite mission, players would run similar bars, ie: Warriors in PvE would find [Bull's Strike] useful here as the enemies actually kite, Mesmers would find [Diversion] and various forms of e-denial useful since enemies don't have crazy energy values with insane energy regen, etc. (Meaning a Mesmer could be a Mesmer!)

Essentially, once you take out all the stupid stuff out of PvE and add in the clause "give the enemies good builds that work together" while not giving them monster skills, one way or another you're going to wind up with PvP-style builds, and I chose not to "gimp" them like Anet did and fix with bigger numbers because this is supposed to be an "Elite Mission".

Also I am fully confident the AI could handle it as long as they make the occasional small tweaks that I mentioned. The AI isn't as dumb as you think it is, it just does a poor job of showing how awesome it is currently in PvE because of the monsters having bad bars etc. But the AI is pretty intelligent with its series of checks. It sometimes uses skills dumbly (ie: using Castigation for damage and never actively using it for e-management), but otherwise it is very good.

Also I didn't mean the traps, those could still be in there, I meant the silly Environmental Effects like in the Factions Elite Missions, etc.

Either way, thanks for the hugeeee comment.

Thanks everyone else too.

Konig Des Todes · Jan 05, 2009, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

-snip-

Oh, I know the AI would be able to handle certain builds. But I just dislike giving NPCs skills like Frenzy. But that is just personal preference/hate. Also, I have realized that my favorite enemies are the Charr in EN, which use old PvP builds. And there are the EN Mandragors which are just... well annoying, which use a well synced build (not sure if it's PvP based beside the Monster skill).

I personally disagree with not giving enemies monster skills, but I also disagree with those monster skills being Overpowered - I think they should just be skills that are unlike skills we can use. Not overpowered, not underpowered, fitting the build, and of course never nerf.

I also disagree with using the PvP versions of all skills for reasoning like [[Smiter's Boon], [[Avatar of Grenth], and [["For Great Justice!"]. Some PvP skill versions would be better to use *cough[[Shadow Form]cough* but not all because some were just slaughtered.

Also, I don't mean "don't put PvP in PvE" as much as I mean "don't take only from PvP." Go ahead and use PvP builds, but also come up with new balanced builds. I doubt that is too much for anyone to do. I make builds for my heroes that link with each other and my own easily - no gimmick behind them (like discordway or sabway) and no very OP'd PvE skill that I use (well, I do use Necrosis but that's the only one ^^). So it is possible to make a PvE-based balanced team set up without it being a gimmick and without it it being a PvP build.

A11Eur0 · Jan 05, 2009, 08:12 AM // 08:12

tl;dr

/unsigned. Because you said "skill>time" but built in mandatory minimum completion times. How is that skill>time when it takes >time to complete it? Seriously.

DarkNecrid · Jan 05, 2009, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

tl;dr

/unsigned. Because you said "skill>time" but built in mandatory minimum completion times. How is that skill>time when it takes >time to complete it? Seriously.

There is no minimum mandatory completion times, if you somehow managed to beat it in 10 seconds, you would be able to.

Just because something takes time to do doesn't mean time is > skill. A team with no skill will get kicked out of the elite mission even if they spend all the time in the world in there (because the areas are blocked off, you can't avoid the encounters. You either win or die.), whereas a team with skill will progress. Skill is > time.

A11Eur0 · Jan 05, 2009, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Ok, so instead of relying on a specific PvE meta that's currently in use, you want to make PvE'ers rely on a specific PvP meta and not get frustrated in the process. Everything in PvE is going to have a "fastest way to beat it" that will be published on PvX and anyone who doesn't fit exactly to that mold or who wants to try something different will be excluded. Then you find some team build that clears it in half the time using a skill on more characters than you would on a PvP team and you'd get this all over again: NERF NERF NERF!!! Ray of Judgement, or Hexway/blood spike come to mind.

DarkNecrid · Jan 05, 2009, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

Ok, so instead of relying on a specific PvE meta that's currently in use, you want to make PvE'ers rely on a specific PvP meta and not get frustrated in the process. Everything in PvE is going to have a "fastest way to beat it" that will be published on PvX and anyone who doesn't fit exactly to that mold or who wants to try something different will be excluded. Then you find some team build that clears it in half the time using a skill on more characters than you would on a PvP team and you'd get this all over again: NERF NERF NERF!!! Ray of Judgement, or Hexway/blood spike come to mind.

The AI would move out of Ray of Judgment here (because they'll have that fixed if they were cool enough to do this), and Hexway/blood spike wouldn't stand a chance here at all. Those builds are good at farming bad players in PvP, but the AI isn't that bad (the AI is actually better than players in ways, which is why people take heroes in the first place, remember? And it'd actually be improved upon just for this area only too...)

PvE players wouldn't have to rely on a specific PvP meta at all, in fact since they are still fighting AI and not top notch players (something fairly impossible to do with any amount of resources as of now) there's still a little bit of flexibility of being able to get away with not running the best stuff, or not having 4 weapon sets for weapon swapping, it's just a lot less here than other areas, which I don't think is a bad thing considering it's an ELITE mission and gives classes new options they've never had before because of bad PvE design like actual e-denial and domination for Mesmers or actual support by Eles that doesn't get owned because lawl im a boss and conditions and hexes last half as long on me.

It's just things that normally are considered bad in PvE, might be a little more effective now, and things that are normally very good in PvE (Channeling, Soul Reaping are 2 good examples) might not be so hot, but that's nothing special as there is tons of areas in PvE where X sucks but Y owns due to whats in the area anyways and you have to (or rather, should) change your build to accommodate those things normally anyways.

Arduin · Jan 05, 2009, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

Ok, so instead of relying on a specific PvE meta that's currently in use, you want to make PvE'ers rely on a specific PvP meta and not get frustrated in the process. Everything in PvE is going to have a "fastest way to beat it" that will be published on PvX and anyone who doesn't fit exactly to that mold or who wants to try something different will be excluded. Then you find some team build that clears it in half the time using a skill on more characters than you would on a PvP team and you'd get this all over again: NERF NERF NERF!!! Ray of Judgement, or Hexway/blood spike come to mind.

This is actually a valid point. If for some reason a skill totally dominates your dungeon, therefore justifies a nerf by Anet, you are basically back to nerfing PvP again because of a skill that is overpowered in PvE and linked to it. The PvP-PvE split was made just to prevent this.

Reflect · Jan 05, 2009, 11:28 AM // 11:28

/notsigned....
go to HA omfg....

DarkNecrid · Jan 05, 2009, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

This is actually a valid point. If for some reason a skill totally dominates your dungeon, therefore justifies a nerf by Anet, you are basically back to nerfing PvP again because of a skill that is overpowered in PvE and linked to it. The PvP-PvE split was made just to prevent this.

Well, there has hardly ever been a change that has been done out of PvE that was a nerf to PvP as well. In fact, I can't even name one because everything has always been nerfed around PvP in the first place.

Anyways, there is no 1 skill that could dominate it, as all the skills that could aren't PvP legal/are already nerfed in PvP. There's no way a single "skill" could possibly win this whole dungeon. Gimmicks are only useful vs bad players, and the AI is smarter than that already. I'm sure some gimmicks could win the first or second levels because these use older skills etc, but they won't get the rewards near as fast as groups who do full clears, and in fact won't be able to get some of the rewards at all w/o the Temple Shards.

Eventually people will find builds that win at it a bit faster than others etc, and I would have no problem with that. A metagame is inevitable, and like usual, PUGs will probably draw themselves to it (although inevitably this faster build would still be balanced.).

The reason these gimmicks/farms work in PvE now aren't here: broken PvE skills (Cry of Pain) & abusing groups of enemies that all have similar bars to one another. (dungeon farms / 55 monk / Shadow Form, etc.)

Fril Estelin · Jan 05, 2009, 01:03 PM // 13:03

I think people are judging this idea at the light of two wrong standpoints (wrong because they do not correspond to dark's vision, which is to go back to the original GW vision of moving from PvE to PvP): judge it as a dungeon (it's not supposed to be a pure PvE place, neither a pure PvP place), or judge it from its feasability (yes it's unfeasable, as most Sardelac's suggestions anyway).

ATM AB is the best place to mix PvE and PvP, it's cool but not very serious from a PvP standpoint. What I'd like (in a dream world) is to make the move from PvE to PvP much less steeper, possibily creating during the process a more relaxed form of PvP, à-la AB but with more structure. I think that when PvP people put their mind to it as dark did, great things happen. I'd combine this with Billiard's (and others!) efforts to teach PvP (why not have a form of mentoring from an experienced PvPer in the Zaishen Temple outpost, where you could call the help of one of these guys in your party), ultimately we'd have a much smoother GW experience, not two camps fighter each others for intellectual or fun supremacy.

MStarfire · Jan 05, 2009, 07:53 PM // 19:53

I'm surprised you didn't ask for a title to go with it.

DarkNecrid · Jan 05, 2009, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by MStarfire

I'm surprised you didn't ask for a title to go with it.

Titles are pure time i and even if the title did nothing, all it would do is make rank elitism for PUGs occur which is kinda lame. Not really worth it even if the title took skill to get (ie: "1 point per full completion). Some people can be very skillful in short amounts of gameplay time, others may suck after 5000+ hours, so thats not helpful either.

MStarfire · Jan 06, 2009, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Titles are pure time i and even if the title did nothing, all it would do is make rank elitism for PUGs occur which is kinda lame. Not really worth it even if the title took skill to get (ie: "1 point per full completion). Some people can be very skillful in short amounts of gameplay time, others may suck after 5000+ hours, so thats not helpful either.

Isn't that the point of ALL titles?